Comments for Online Guidebook Generates Hate Mail from Wolf Creek Locals at http://foam-core-skier.com , comment 0 to 20 out of 35 comments http://foam-core-skier.com Thu, 21 Aug 2008 22:22:22 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.2 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_52 I understand the argument about keeping local stashes "secret". I have my own ski maps of Red Mountain Pass. I have only showed them to one other local. On the other hand, the one time i went to Wolf creek Pass, i skiied 90% of the runs no Pat's map with no help from locals and no guide book. These runs are all within spitting distance of the highway. And even worse, there are chairlifts accross the street. I cant help but ask if any of these "Backcountry" locals ever ski the lifts there? Those of you who do ride chairlifts, it would be safe to say you are supporting the development of that area. Where chairlifts grow, development and more skiers will follow. BC skier traffic on Red Mountain Pass has grown by an order of magnitude since Silverton Ski Area went in. I was very sorry to see those lifts get built. Wolf Creek locals might consider moving someplace that does not have chairlifts, and has more terrain. The place is extremely limited for terrain. Another note, i noticed that there are no maps of teton pass in pat's guidebook. He skiis there. :-\ jim t from Ridgway - Jim T Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:58:03 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_51 -------------------------- Note: Due the hate mail and extreme agitation from the Wolf Creek Locals, I have removed the route descriptions for the North Side of Wolf Creek Pass. If you are interested in the story behind this, you can find it here: Online Guidebook Generates Hate Mail from Wolf Creek Locals --------------------------- BOOO! Don't reward bad behavior! You'll further only enable their jerk attitude. - Ryan Woods Thu, 22 Mar 2007 10:57:12 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_50 First, Deb, you would be well served to take a lesson from Tele-guy. You praise him and his words, but still don't seem to publicly acknowledge how far your actions are from his words. I suspect even he would find your apparent treatment of bc skiers you have run into on the pass distasteful. And I find it sad that you praise him for his depth, and put down TTips for its shallowness. Could it be that he's deep and TTips is shallow because he agrees with you and TTips (as a generalization) doesn't? Do you get it at all? A huge number of backcountry skiers from all over the country think you have been totally out of line, and all you can do is praise the one guy who somewhat agrees with you and put down all of the many who disagree with you. Tele-Guy, I understand and respect your point of view. I don't tend to give out "secret stashes" publicly. But I do give directions out to friends (and strangers) if asked, in general. To me, that is different than publishing them on the web. But we're all on a continuum here, you only give them out to people who will ski with you, I only give them out in private "conversation", and some places give them out more widely. The fact that you choose to spread the knowledge differently than me or than Pat doesn't mean that you are not spreading awareness of the secret stashes. The march of population and life and society is inexorable. And none of us (including Deb, since she seems ok with your point of view) can really doing anything to stop it. Nor should we, if we want to smile on our fellow man and woman; I don't suspect you'd be ok with an attitude of "I will never show a single soul these backcountry stashes; they're all mine!" Lastly, Ryan has my point of view. As a backcountry skier, I have secret stashes in my "backyard" (and many more I need to find!), but that doesn't mean I don't like travelling to new places. And if I have any hope of making those travels really worthwhile in the short time I have, guidebooks help. They're no substitute for local knowledge and local introduction, but I don't know people in every nook and cranny of the country. Guidebooks are also no substitute for backcountry knowledge. But if I don't have that knowledge, I'm in trouble whether I am in my backyard without a guidebook or somewhere else with a guidebook. Guidebooks aren't evil, and they aren't the enemy. And the fact that they led to the spewing of such vitriol and hate from some backcountry skiers from my own state, from the mountains that are in my heart, is truly sad. - D. Steuer Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:04:08 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_48 Pat - I've been lurking on your site for some months now, but when this came up I felt I just had to weigh in. All of the places that I've come to love, for the most part I found myself. Yes, these are indeed public lands, and ayone can say anything that they coose to about them - this is still (marginally) a free country. But - I think discretion and discernment is advised when we decide with whom to share our beta. I am pretty much against guidbooks for all but the most trammeled of areas, say rock climbing crags, for instance. I can't think of how many times I've gritted my teeth when a place in which I formerly found solace and solitude was blown all to hell by an article in Outside mag or some such. Let people find these places on thier own, if they've curiosity enough to look on a map and the gumption to take themselves there. I dunno how he feels these days, but when I last checked, our mutual pal Jim T. in Ridgway would be scandalized about beta posting on certain areas near and dear to my his heart and mine. Your a good guy Pat, and I like skiing with you. I'm sorry you've been reviled, but this is an emotional subject for many. - All the best, C. Rafferty - Charlie Rafferty Wed, 21 Mar 2007 09:40:12 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_46 Well, I think that I had put the proverbial cart in front of this horse. Sorry Deb, for flaming on you just now, it was unneccesary and harsh. My zeal for the subject heightened my emotions and well, we are technically no better off other than just saying sorry (and you never did anything to me personally!). So, here we are on the path to making-a-mends in what I consider a pretty awesome community. When people start saying sorry I become humbled and I think I should bow out and let the people who are really a part of the discussion conclude and move-on towards a better more unified community (and finish this blasted thesis of mine!). Good luck - jonas Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:47:17 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_45 Deb, depth vs shallowness? You and your cohorts expressed the grandest token of shallowness in this whole foray. It is my understanding that you still may not see the point here, unless of course your judgement on this subject is clouded by your unmoving principles. You encountered people unknown to you (who were just exactly the good people tele-guy spoke of mind you), and you were complete jerks to them! And that was not the first time either from what I gather! Now on a different note, certainly tele-guy's comment are really cool, yes that is what the community is all about, sharing, experiencing, expanding, but where did you and your cohorts attitude about this go? People, we are talking about maybe 100's of people (not thousands) that will view these threads and actually make turns. There is a complete sense of xenophobia and your "secret" stashes. Side note, one of the "secret" stashes we have up at Cameron Pass requires a 2 hour skin in just to access the goods, (guess what?) it is plenty busy on good snow days, AND there is no detailed map on the web on how to get there. So what does that tell you? The very fact that you get all excited when someone introduces the idea of personal and meaningful communication and friendly backcountry demeanor, and talks about punishing a fellow who puts a map of an area that is surrounded by a busy highway on three sides, something just doesn't make sense. I think there is a need for you to reconcile some confounding statements and actions. I.e. you lack the credibility to carry on a meaningful conversation on the subject, until well you say sorry to Ryan for being the jerks you were (sorry Ryan gotta stand up fer ya here). He is easily one of the nicest people I know. Make sense? You and your cohorts have really offended people that at thier base, fundemental components, are very likely, kind, generous, lovely people. My guess there are a lot more of them out there Deb than you may want to hear about, it is so much easier to vilanize people than to bring them in and share. But hey, you clearly are not into making friends, or are you? When am I going to see people who have that supposed depth of character and apologize for being rude (there were three of you in this case)? You did it so as to repell people for not skiing your snow, now that is shallow, no? Good luck reconciling your position... - jonas Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:15:39 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_44 Interesting, it looks like Wolf Creek Pass is the new hotspot for BC skiing :-). I think the NIMBY attitude expressed by the locals is the true failing of the modern environmental movement. This elitist attitude is one of the greatest dangers facing our wild places - that's why I consider myself a conservasionist and NOT (any longer) an environmentalist. As many have expressed, if the BC is off-limits, then no one will care when it is closed off completely (liability concerns, privatization, whatever). In the past, efforts were made to get people out in the backcountry - with these attitudes Logan Pass would never have been built, there would be no lodges in any of our National Parks, in fact there might not be any National Parks, or they would be like Banff with ultra-expensive hotels in the most spectacular spots and the campgrounds for the common folk next to the RR tracks. Also, I hear talk about "impact on the backcountry" ??? Of all outdoor activities I can think of BC skiing is probably the lowest impact of all - it is truely "no trace" use - as soon as the snow melts, there is no trace of anyone's passing. I post my trip reports all the time, though I admit it's an obscure website ;D. But I freely share beta with people I meet on the trail, because I know most people I meet aren't as interested in skiing the trees. If I had run into those locals I would have assumed they were from a large city, as my experience has always been that rural folks are more open and friendly (though I would venture a guess that they are all originally from a large city, judging by their attitudes). I hope I never have the displeasure of skiing with any of the WC locals - not likely as I'm in the PNW - we have plenty of snow - and you're all welcome to come up and ski it. 'course it's not dry Colorado powder ;D. - Murray Zenk Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:11:42 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_43 Deb, I got your email. Thanks for the apology, it is accepted and greatly appreciated. You are right it is surprising how small our skiing community is. I agree with Tele-Guy to some degree. It is important to be mentored as you begin your backcountry career. It is akin to the old mountaineering and climbing tradition of being mentored by an experienced climber. However, once you’re in the fold and you are a seasoned mature backcountry skier, guide books are a great help when exploring new terrain. Road trips to other ski destinations are great fun and expand your skiing horizons. Whether it is the Tetons, La Sals, Wasatch, Rogers Pass, or the volcanoes of Chili, guide books are invaluable. I ski my backyard stashes every weekend but I also travel quite a bit all over Colorado and occasionally to other states to ski other places. Guides like Lou Dawson’s have helped greatly for this. As backcountry skiing continues to grow guide books will continue to be more plentiful. I don’t see this as a problem though. It should only help to further unite and organize our small but growing community. Imagine if BSA (http://www.backcountryalliance.org) grew into an organization like the Access Fund. We would have a much better chance of fighting off the snowmobiling lobby. The snowmobile lobby is growing, is well funded, and is far better organized then the backcountry ski/snowboard community. Anything that helps to pull our small community closer together is invaluable for us right now. Once snowmobiling is allowed as part of a forest plan in your secret stash it will be very difficult to change the use paradigm. - Ryan Miller Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:01:32 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_42 Tele-Guy, who are you? The comment you posted is beautiful! You are so right on with your perspective. You write about the “process” of being introduced to the backcountry by those with more experience and knowledge and how that has been almost as great as the skiing. How true! I love how the focus of your comment is geared towards the appreciation and respect to those who have turned you on to backcountry skiing. I agree with you, Tele-Guy, that the community of skiers is one of the best things going on in the backcountry. I, too, feel lucky to be a part of it. When Pat’s online guidebook was discovered amongst us “oldtimers”, that honor and respect was somehow vilified. You state how guidebooks allow people to skip steps of the whole process and the experience turns into an ugly race to get to the goods first. I feel that online postings, if not used carefully, can cause this problem you mentioned: The rise of self-interest and the fall of our communal sense of self. I see so much of that in generations raised on chat rooms and the internet. Your parting paragraph is comforting and gives me hope. I’m so happy to read what you say. Thanks for putting into words what I feel in my heart. Your prose is in such contrast to the threads I read on telemarktalk; depth vs. shallowness. I would love to know who you are! - Deb Morton Wed, 21 Mar 2007 07:20:58 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_41 What exactly does "local" mean? Is there some sort of time period required in the surfer code to establish residency? Or, just to be fair, should all backcountry stashes be ceded to pureblood Native Americans? I've lived in a nice town near some fine stashes for three and a half years. Dragging my knuckles in the backcountry is one of my deepest loves. Should I have never gone up there and just sat at home because I'm relatively new in town? One thing is for sure, even though I feel like the revealing of this stuff on the www could in fact construe a betrayal, treating people with like interests poorly is one of the shallowest of behaviors. Bottom Line, which someone else rightly noted: I wouldn't have had a clue about this site or where to ski/ride in the Wolf Creek Backcountry if "locals" hadn't started foaming at the mouth. - Jim Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:42:16 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_40 Guidebooks are here to stay - love 'em or hate 'em. If this website takes down its WC info another will put it up. You can't stop it from happening - the real questions is how you want to deal with it. Like many others here I only found out about this site because of the controversy the locals have created. Now people from Mountainbuzz.com are going to get in on this as well. In a free society information is supposed to be free. Yes you might get a patent and protect your knowledge for a time, but after that it enters the public domain so that all people might benefit from your knowledge. It is this process that has lead to modern civilization. None of us would have the free time to ski with high tech skis without modern technology. Without the sharing of knowledge we would still be hunter gathers limited to living in tropical climates. Even the Eskimos had considerable technology and shared it freely with each other so that they could survive in the harsh conditions we now play in. The good news for locals and all human powered back country skiers is this - most people simply won't put out the effort to hike and skin for their turns. Yes there are more BC skiers now than there were before, and guide books do provide knowledge faster and more conveniently. That is the reality of living in an area with an increasing population of outdoor oriented people. I hope that this website doesn't take down any information - even if it does the info will just show up somewhere else. I also hope that the locals decide to peacefully and graciously share the public lands that they live close to. When the WC locals come to my backyard I will welcome them and freely share my knowledge. - Reality Check Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:42:05 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_39 Tele Guy, Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Seems like most people have a hard time controlling their emotions when discussing this topic. I think your argument that "The process of slowly being brought into the fold by those with more experience and knowledge has been a very rewarding and fun process, almost as great as the skiing." is a valid and honorable one. I too have spent a lot of time looking for new places to ski and having great experiences doing it. But I have also used guidebooks when expediency was a priority. For example, if you are a weekend warrior/skier and come to Teton Pass for the first time, you can save yourself a LOT of wasted time by buying the photo book of Teton ski terrain or buying the simple map sold at Wilson Sports. Both of these will get you to the main runs. Or go to the Wasatch for the weekend. If you buy the wonderful terrain maps that are sold at most backcountry ski shops in the West, you will save yourself a LOT of time. Of course, you can discover it on your own. Like you said, that can be a great experience. Unlike you, I sometimes use guidebooks. I was an avid climber for years and found them invaluable. And I have used them for mountain biking and hiking. The main reason is that I often don't have the time for discover and explore through trial and error. Regarding people giving me route information for my guidebook. I guess I was pretty naive to think people would send me information. Having worked extensively in software development, I thought maybe the ski community might join together like opensource software developers did to create some of the best software ever designed. Also, I created the guidebook project originally for Backcountry Snowsports Alliance, a non-profit organization in Colorado that helps lobby for non-motorized backcountry ski areas. Many people from BSA were going to contribute routes, but it never happened, so I decided to write all of the routes myself. And that's fine. I have dozens of routes I can add if I decide to pursue this venture. Again, thanks for the comments. - Foam-Core Tue, 20 Mar 2007 18:36:43 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_38 Pat, I just started backcountry skiing a few years ago. I guess that makes me part of "the problem" in some sense. I started like many people by learning to tele in the resort, then taking an avalanche class, then moving into the areas adjacent to some of my favorite ski areas, and eventually meeting some nice people who had a lot of "secret" knowledge that they slowly began to share with me. I have never used a guidebook to "discover" a place. I don't think I ever will. The process of slowly being brought into the fold by those with more experience and knowledge has been a very rewarding and fun process, almost as great as the skiing. It has helped me to grow as a backcountry skier and has helped me to appreciate the backcountry in a way that no guidebook ever could. My group of ski friends has expanded organically over the past 3 years, and I am now the proud bearer of quite a bit of "secret" knowledge about primo stashes in certain places all over Colorado that shall remain unnamed. There is nothing like being in one of these places and "bumping" into someone who I know, who I have skied with, and who I respect and appreciate. There is nothing like arriving at one of these places and being able to identify who has gone before me just by the way they have laid down their skin track. Thankfully, most of these stashes have remained top secret, and I have honestly never seen anyone there who is not somehow connected to our group of ski friends. To me, this community of skiers is one of the best things going on in the backcountry. I feel lucky to be a part of it. Let's be clear. I do not feel like I "own" these places or like people should not be allowed to ski them. But when people ask me about them, I laugh and tell them exactly what I was told when I first wanted to know where to go. "If you want to know where I ski, come ski with me." And I mean it. That doesn't mean I will reveal the best stash on day one. I won't. It does mean that I am willing to share the beta with people if they come ski with me and are willing to take the time to get tuned in. The problem with a guidebook is that it allows people to skip this whole process. The book allows skiers to join the club without gaining the experience and understanding of backcountry ski etiquette that is required if we are going to share what is ultimately a finite resource. By allowing people to skip these important steps, it seems to me that we turn what was once a community experience into an ugly race to get to the goods first. I suppose this attitude is just symptomatic of the larger problems that our society faces, namely the rise of self-interest and the fall of our communal sense of self. But I sure hate to see that spread all the way into the backcountry. After all, part of why I like to ski is because of the sense of shared experience that accompanies it. I like to look back at the hill and see that I have left plenty of untracked lines for whoever follows me. I'm under no illusion. You will publish your guide. But you can forget it if you think I am going to help you out. And I sincerely hope everyone else out there decides to ignore your silly request for free beta on secret stashes. If you want to know where I ski, you're going to have to come ski with me. And frankly, at this point, you're not invited. Good luck! - Tele-Guy Tue, 20 Mar 2007 17:38:11 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_37 Well, I am sure that this discussion will continue till every last place we (quite backcountry enthusiasts)love has been developed. It is sad really. Why is it sad you ask? Simply put we are all the same petulant little kiddies that continue to throw sand in each others eyes and fighting over what is in all practical terms some pretty trite shit. All the while, the D-10's and ski lift manufacturers are quietly amassing. The argument here if I am so bold to paraphrase it here is, people don't want thier stashes broadcasted on the web (NIMBY), they say it is accelerating the use and deterioration of said area. The other side of the argument maintains that well, the popularity of the WC pass area has skyrocketed before any maps were published. Well I think everyone is right here, the motives however are entirely opposite, I want to comment on motives and thier consequences, so excuse the diatribe and condescendtion. First I need to predicate all of my comments on the fact I am a Front Ranger and former mountain town vetran for plenty enough years I think I pretty much hit the mold for 95% of the population that get only a modest amount of days on my skis (backcountry, frontcountry, or resort), so in all reality I really can't take myself too seriously and exert the SoCal (or should I say SoCo) surf nazi attitude. So, kiddies, play nice, stop throwing fucking sand in each others eyes, stop shitting in each other's kiddie pool and listen up. The WC pass area is likely what Berthoud, Loveland, Vail, Jones, and Cameron passes were 10-15 maybe even 20 years ago. The fact is you (WC locals) don't have the luxury of figuring out how to manage and maintain your sandbox in 10-20 years, it is happening NOW! So, I would first and foremost would make nice and stop acting like petulant children, the map is up (it could come down, but that is likely not going to make a bit of difference, and you know it!), and whether you like it or not, user days are skyrocketing in all BC and FC areas, so are you or are you not willing to be a part of the solution. In the formidable and poetic words of Roger Waters, [i]Hey you, don't tell me there's no hope at all Together we stand, divided we fall.[/i] The developers, snowmobiliers, and ATVers, are all salivating. They have numbers in terms of membership, lobbying power, MONEY, and connections. We as a user group don't have much of a pot to piss in to be honest. Brian Holcombe (the new Executive Director) of the BSA is getting people together, but he can't do it alone, we NEED a unified voice here. Ryan hit it on the head, unite and have a voice, or divide and splinter, and hope you can get used to ski-in/ski-out backcountry lodging. Don't think so? Remember every 20 years or so, some twisted motherfucker of a politician decides it would be a good idea to liquidate Federal land to pay for government services. Well, let's just say Red would love to see his village grow, maybe even on the north side of the pass. So SoCo vibers (I won't name you, you know who you are), I would bet it is better energy spent to become a positive presence in your area and leave the petulant child thing behind, you know grow-up. Also, if you pulled that shit and attitude like you did to Ryan, I can't say that I wouldn't have gotten in your face and told you to stop being a dick(s), and the thought of that scenario makes it all the more sad. See, it was actually your attitude and not some silly map that really has caused all of this mess. So can you get past YOUR ego and self-aggrandizing on this matter, I am affraid it is a classic case of psychological projection. Pat, we have had this exact same discussion up in the Cameron Pass area. Brian Gardel (aka Frenchy) has moderated and executed a good plan (well at least most of us think so) for this exact issue. I will attach the link; http://www.powderbuzz.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57 Good luck Have fun playing nice in the sandbox children!! - jonas Tue, 20 Mar 2007 07:44:02 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_36 Hi Jim, A couple of very nice emails you wrote; more insults and threats. You should have talked with Howard, Deb, or Steve first. They could have told you I don't respond too well to threats and insults. It is this kind of email that keeps the guidebook alive. In case you haven't seen it, check out this thread on Telemarktips.com: http://telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=32925 They somehow found out about it because some out-of-town skier got a taste of the local "bad vibe" and he posted his experience in TT. Really, you should check it out; they seem to be having a good time with it. I think you'll enjoy it too. One important thing to note when you read the thread: there seem to be some people in the backcountry ski world who DON'T agree with your NIMBY attitude. Not saying I'm right; just saying there are two sides to this coin. - Foam-Core Mon, 19 Mar 2007 21:48:50 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_35 Pat, what are you triaging out the web mail now! I sent a posting yesterday, with support of my friends and for you to remove the guide book.I haven't seen it yet so it looks like you have turned to selective postings after the tongue lashings you took from Howard, Deb, & Steve. Look you piece of shit you were aided by the local community and you betrayed that trust; stop rationalizing. I know a good psychiatrist who can help with your big ego and self aggrandizing behavior. I'll pay for the first therapy session in exchange for the guide removal. - jim sutton Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:54:45 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_34 Holy crap. I knew about the place but never thought too much about hitting it. Now I'm going to, and it will be to spite Howard Steve and Deb, and people like them. But especially Deb "Your ass is going down in this part of CO" Morton. I don't mean just a couple of tracks, but thousands of vertical feet of big fat turns, day after day. I'm gonna make it a mission, with powder as a bonus. The Plunge after a storm? Can't wait. Then I'll put some photos and descriptions up on ttips and tgr. It will absolutely NOT be because of the guide book, but because you are just such assholes. Just think, all that impact and YOU will be to blame. How funny. Maybe you'll now get some hate mail complaining about YOUR direct impact on your stashes? Hope I see you on the uptracks, so I can laugh at you. I'm sure I'll recognize you, probably by the stench. - Buck Mon, 19 Mar 2007 16:08:17 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_33 I would love to see the numbers for traffic of the guidebook site before and after the hostile "vibe" was first mentioned at TTIPS. And now, I'm guessing, a huge spike in interest with the potty-mouthed threats and half-assed apologies. I know I never looked up the Wolf Creek guide until the hostile locals made it interesting. Now I'm thinking about checking the area out. Oh, the irony... - Paco Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:26:42 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_32 Those was some lame apologies! Keep the guide book up. I am not usually in support of giving away backcountry ski stashes, but the response from the whiney elitist locals makes me want to share this area with everyone now. The treatment by locals to newcomers as described in the TelemarkTips thread is unacceptable and I hope your precious little secret area is postholed by a hundred thousand snowboarders! (BTW almost 4000 views of that thread at this time!) Foam-not-so-core and the rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves, puttin out this dirty laundry for the world to see. I had no intention of skiing wolf creek, but I will now and I will also support the development of that area so I can ski it some more from the comfort of a plushy condo, and not have to drive my SUV back-n-forth - thereby saving the enviroment. Leave the guidebook up! - Sco Ho Mon, 19 Mar 2007 13:55:56 +0100 http://foam-core-skier.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=41&Itemid=36#pc_31 This whole 'controversy' is a joke! You folks who are bitching, moaning, and griping about having a guidebook created on "YOUR" area need to lighten up. Every oudoor sport has had a guide book made.... bait fishing, fly fishing, ocean fishing, mountain biking, road biking, backcountry skiing, resort skiing, cross country skiing, snowboard, kayaking, rafting, multiday river trips, multiday backpacking trips, hiking, mountain climbing, rock climbing, hot springs, ETC, ETC, ETC... anything I miss? Im pretty sure theres at least 100 more. In the past 15 years I have seen many guidebooks spring up. Have the guidebooks alone made a noticeable impact to the areas I frequent? Hell no! Most people dont even use guide books, they find their information from a variety of other sources. To the wolf creek locals: What is so excellent (or whatever) about *YOUR* area that mandates the need for this guide to be removed and people to be kept out of the area? Every statement you have stated reeks of the NIMBY attitude.. What is so special about 'your' area (which is on public land) that it should only be kept for YOU??? - Ya'll are lame! Mon, 19 Mar 2007 11:19:57 +0100